“你沒有界線”——尹吉男&滕菲的一次聊天（2011-09-27）
滕菲：上學的時候，應該是八幾年，我記得有一次你跟我説，現在你這樣的普通話特時髦，好多人開始學這個。
尹吉男：對，帶一點南方腔。
滕菲：當時我還沒感覺，但過了一段時間我就感覺到了，有的人故意這麼説。
尹吉男：過去是普通話的概念。普通話就是廣播裏的聲音，廣播裏的聲音就是一個最正經的，最權威的聲音。但是，它逐漸被解構了。主持人的聲音發生變化，特別電臺裏面主持娛樂節目有好多帶口音的聲音。這樣就等於把方言合法化了。它是怎麼開始的呢？改革開放以後，先是香港話開始出現了。以前沒有人特意來説這個，但後來變成潮流了，越來越多的人來講這些方言。這也意味著不再是一個標準，標準多元了，用哪一種方言都可以表達。
滕菲：反正你感覺到混在裏頭説不好也沒關係。我就想起你還跟我説過這個，現在還真是這麼回事。這個我有印象，因為我感覺到那種變化了。原來要説話發言，語言不是很準的話，還是覺得有點不大合適，不好意思。後來就覺得挺如魚得水，因為大家有的還故意這麼説。口音我一輩子就改不了，特別頑固。
“為什麼版畫係出的當代藝術家多”
滕菲：我本科畢業的時候做的是浮水印木刻。 嘗試了好多傳統上沒有用過的方法。當時我記得伍必端先生覺得挺有意思的，跟他們的不一樣，他説你什麼時候來一趟，我們聊一聊，我就特懶。當時弄的那個木刻，也是有一定影響的。
尹吉男： 為什麼版畫係出的當代藝術家多？因為它有這種製作性。這個製作性，就包含了現代性在裏面，因為不是完全速寫的。因為藝術有兩種，一種是速寫，就是馬上就抒發出來；還有一種就是製作，一遍一遍製作出來。這個就跟現代藝術的方式有關係。
現代藝術方式兩個，一個是你要轉換，把你的想法、觀念從一個方式轉到另外一個方式。一個是你要製作，要製作出來，而不是用速寫的方式來做。劉小東是比較典型的速寫方式。他的畫很快，幾天就畫出來了。他把最初的感覺保留在畫面上，那種生動、情緒都在畫裏面。但大多數人是製作的，包括像方力均、張曉剛都是製作性特別強的。他們是一遍一遍地製作，那個東西沒有速寫性。你看畫面，在筆觸上看不到情緒，只是一個結構，一個圖像。是不一樣的東西。
我想説，你回頭做的話，你也可能是利用兩種製作性的訓練，版畫和設計，再來做一個某種更自由的東西，也可能會形成另外一個什麼東西。我是這樣想。
“你跟別的人是不一樣的”
滕菲：跟你交流太少了。你可能也就看過我2006年的那個小展覽，為我自己做的東西。對吧？
尹吉男：對。87年你畢業的那個時候，我還沒有太關注當代藝術。我寫第一篇評論是88年，呂勝中和徐冰的展覽。最早有印象的作品，是你已經從德國回來了，有一些展覽，也做一些首飾。
滕菲：還沒有和你正面聊過。
尹吉男：你的作品給我的感覺是出身不一樣。原來做設計的，怎麼説呢，可能設計性特別強。但是，你做這個，有設計性，但設計性是隱藏在背後，不是那麼粗淺。一看就是藝術家做的，跟設計師做的有區別。有的東西你會更多地強調繪畫性。更多考慮它不是僅僅戴在手上的效果，甚至把它變成很獨立的東西來看待，有點像一個作品一樣。可能設計師只考慮，手上是什麼樣的感覺，這個首飾是什麼東西。作品有這樣的差別。
還有，你對材質本身比較重視。用什麼樣的材質和什麼結合是你注重的。以前我不太注重材質。90年代初的時候，我跟隋建國聊天，説到這個東西時，對我有觸動。你的作品突顯這個，強調材質本身的這個質感。這個質感本身是可以説話的。這也是你和別人的一個比較。
另外，你做的首飾又是立體的平面。從不同角度上來看，這個東西既可以戴在手上，又可以獨立地在一個空間裏放置，也可以放置到展廳裏，是多層考慮。把它當成藝術品來對待，不是一個工藝品，有這樣一個方式。我那時候就想，作為藝術家來做這樣一個展示，把它作為一個藝術品來對待，可能會呈現這樣一種效果。但是我當時也在想，如果要回頭來做藝術，又會是什麼樣？
因為我認識一個陶藝家叫白明。他的東西我特別喜歡。看了那個東西就想擁有，是真的喜歡。但是他總是拿他的畫給我看。我就跟他講，你畫畫跟陶藝比差得非常遠。你那個東西是不經意做得特別好，達到巔峰狀態。但我不反對你畫，為什麼？你畫畫的自由狀態，會把它畫到那個陶藝裏去。這是其他陶藝家沒有的資源。因為他是學工藝出身的。像他這樣，他之所以做得好是因為他也有一些自由表達的仙氣，不斷從繪畫裏面找一些感覺。純粹的陶藝家的作品你看了，看著很氣派，做得也很好看，但是總覺得憋悶，沒有一種通透的，打開的東西。所以這是一個例子，就是你跟別的人是不一樣的。我覺得你也有一種東西，是別人所沒有的。
“每一種表達都有它的職能”
“Every kind of expression has its own function.”
滕菲：的確也是你剛才説的。我這個背景是從藝術來的，不是説從那個設計的狀態裏。從我個人的東西來説，更多還是借助首飾這麼一個切入點，在藝術實踐的範疇裏躲著。為什麼有時候説特糾結呢？就是你想做自己東西的時候，你要保持相對的自由；但當你要做教學的時候，肯定要考慮設計的需求，因為畢竟是在設計學院。所以我有時候就老在轉換這種角色。反正做得也挺有意思，感覺這裡面可做的東西特別多。
尹吉男：其實就跟我自己寫作一樣。寫作當中可能會有兩種文體。一種文體可能就是寫規範的論文。論文能夠表達自己嗎？能。但它是非常專業化的一種學術。不過，這個並不是全部。你肯定有很多想法是在這樣的模式裏面不能實現的。那麼你就可以寫隨筆。別人叫它評論。我一直叫隨筆。只不過這個隨筆是拿一些作品當做一個材料來進行寫作的。它的文體模式和論文完全不一樣。兩種東西都是我寫的，並不能説這個是我寫的，那個不是我寫的。
我是覺得用一種方式只能表達一部分，不要奢望這一種方式把一切都表達了。我不能説把它們對調。或者只用一種。如果我指定一種方式表達全部，結果是使每一種表達都不純粹。所以是有很多方式的。要多種渠道表達。每一種表達都有它的職能，都會很純粹。加起來你的靈感就更強大，而不是一個片狀的。你看魯迅又寫文學史，又寫政論，又寫小説。小説從中篇到短篇都寫。還寫雜文、散文，還堅持數十年雷打不動寫日記，他幾乎能把我們能想像到的文本都佔全了。他全方位地表達自己，而且發現每一個自己都是一個側面。
你沒有界線，版畫也做，油畫也做，雕塑也做，幾乎沒有不做的東西，沒有限制，就是藝術家。
“生活狀態本身就非常不確定”
滕菲：到了這個階段了，按説是各方面都比較純粹了。現在如果説最在意的，你會最在意什麼呢？
尹吉男：我覺得還是思想自由的這種精妙。你能夠把你想的東西，及時、順利、有效地表達出來。這個是最重要的。到這個年齡段，只能説比以前好像能夠更自由一些。第一我沒有説規定我算哪個學科的，學科是自由的。此外，所有的訪談，我特不願意聽一個詞，就是你作為什麼什麼的，你怎麼樣怎麼樣。這個詞我特別不喜歡，因為我什麼都不作為，我就是這樣的一個狀態。只是覺得，你能夠去自由地思想和表達。只要他的這種模式對你有一種限制的話，你就會不舒服，你就要反抗。而且我特別不喜歡普遍性的東西。
滕菲：這點還真是。你剛才説到的好多東西，我會有同感，我也想説這個肯定挺限制的，受不了。還有就像你説的，也不喜歡從眾的那個東西。一看大家都那樣，我就趕緊撤離。一種條件反射，你就不願意在那個狀態下。我們生日同天，這個東西看來還是有點關係的。
尹吉男：人都有這樣的關係。因為我們都屬於水瓶座的。他們説水瓶座本身就是追求自由，不願有限制，不願意有一個束縛的東西。
滕菲：我學生也説我。水瓶座的人，不知道他在想什麼的。
尹吉男：對，呂勝中寫我，他第一句話就是，他是讓人看不準的人。
滕菲：這種時代，這個狀態，對現在的藝術，你有一個什麼樣的自己的看法？
尹吉男：總體來講，藝術現在逐漸逐漸開始從價值觀範疇裏面游離出來了。它不代表一種價值判斷。它只是説帶有一個階段性的，或者是一種臨時性的。你的一個想法，或者你的一個情緒，僅此而已。當代藝術跟人文學科的關係開始變得不像過去了，過去基本上沒有辦法來剝離。人文學科是價值觀的。現在藝術變成臨時性的東西，臨時性的一個感觸，一個想法，一個做法，而不是代表一種價值。這是一個特別大的變化。
從現代主義到後現代這個時期變化特別快，一個人有很多變化，而且有很多的措施，有不同表達，表達的領域也是五花八門。有時候我們懷疑是不是有統一的人。也不存在分離不分離，他就表達了不同時期特定的一個想法，一個特定想法不見得就是跟你這個人有什麼關係，不需要有聯繫。
滕菲：其實這麼説起來，現在這種生活狀態本身實際上就非常不確定。
（注：因篇幅所限，這裡刊出的只是這一次交流的節選。----蔣岳紅 整理）
“No Limitations”
---- A Conversation between Yin Ji’nan and Teng Fei（2011-09-27）
Teng Fei: When I was in school in the 1980s, you once told me my way of pronunciation was in fashion, and more people were beginning to talk that way.
Yin Jinan: Yes, with a little southern accent.
Teng Fei: I didn’t realize it at that time, but some time later I found some people speaking mandarin this way purposedly.
Yin Jinan: Our concepts of “Mandarin” have changed. Mandarin was the voice on the radio, and was considered the most standard and authoritative voice. But this idea has changed over years. Hosts’ voices have changed. They speak Mandarin with accents, especially those entertainment hosts on radio stations. It has been a slow process. In other words, dialects have become accepted. But how did this begin? After reform and opening, Hong Kong dialects began to be heard. People never used to want to speak that way, but it began to get popular, and many people began to speak with an accent. It meant that Mandarin was not the absolute standard, and ideas could be expressed with any accent or dialect.
Teng Fei: And it doesn’t matter if you can’t speak any particular dialect that well. I was just thinking of what you had told me, and it is absolutely the case now. I have felt this change. In the past, if you couldn’t speak good Mandarin it was really embarrassing. But now you feel good speaking with some accent, because more and more people speak this way purposedly. I will never be able to change my own accent.
“Why do so many contemporary artists come from a printmaking background?”
Teng Fei: My major in university was woodprints. I tried a lot of new, non-traditional methods, and Mr. Wu Biduan was interested in what I was making, and said they were very special. He told me to come to his place to talk about it, but I was too lazy to go. But those woodprints influenced my later work.
Yin Jinan: Why do so many contemporary artists come from a printmaking background? It’s because of the productive nature of printmaking. This productive nature is not just drawing, so it retains a contemporary feel. Art has two types: one is drawing, expressing ideas directly; another is production, producing things over and over again. In this way it is related to contemporary art’s methods.
There are two kinds of contemporary art. One is transformation-- transforming your ideas and concepts to something different. The other is production—creating something, not just drawing literally. Liu Xiaodong uses a typical drawing method. He paints fast and can finish one piece in a few days. He retains the original feelings on the canvas, and tucks the vividness and emotion into the painting. But most contemporary works use production, for example Fang Lijun and Zhang Xiaogang. They produce over and over again, but not literal drawings. When you look at the canvas, you do not feel emotions in the brushwork, but see only the structure and the image. It is different.
I would say, if you were to do it again, you might utilize two different kinds of production,printmaking and design, to make your works even freer or set your works in a different direction.
“You have something others do not have”
Teng Fei: I haven’t spoken with you for a while. I think you might have seen my last small exhibition in 2006, what I made pieces for myself. Is that right?
Yin Jinan: Yes. At the time when you graduated in 1987, I wasn’t paying much attention to contemporary art. I wrote my first art review in 1988, about the exhibition of Lv Shengzhong and Xu Bing. By that time when I noticed your work, you had already come back from abroad .You had some exhibitions,including your art jewelry.
Teng Fei: I hadn’t spoken to you about my work.
Yin Jinan: Your work gives me a feeling of a departure. Usually, a ‘designer’ will emphasize the ‘design’ of their work, but with you, the design sense is hiding behind the pieces themselves, less obvious. Looking at your works, one can tell they are made by an artist, not a designer. We can see more “picturesqueness” in your work .You don’t only see jewelry as something to complement their bodies, but regard it as an independent thing, a piece of art. Maybe designers only think about the feeling of the jewelry on their hand and what it is. That is the difference.
Also, you attach a lot of importance to materials, and to which kinds of materials can be matched together. I never paid much attention to materials before, but after a chat with Sui Jianguo in the 90’s, the significance of materials hit me. You emphasize the material itself, whose texture or meaning itself can say something.This is a contrast to others.
Your jewelry is also very three-dimensional. Seen from different perspectives, it could be worn on hands, or independently put in a space, or exhibited in an exhibition hall. It should be regarded as artwork, not a handicraft. I think for something to be made by an artist and exhibited and regarded as artwork, it should have this kind of effect. But I also wonder what would it be if you were returning to make artwork?
I know a ceramicist named Bai Ming, and I like his works very much. When I see his works, I want to own them. But he always brings out his paintings to show me, and I tell him, “Your paintings are a far cry from your ceramics. Your ceramics are so casually exquisite. But I have no objection to your painting, either, because your free style can influence your ceramics. That’s something other ceramicists do not have.” He is a born craftsman, finding feeling from free expression and his painting. True ceramicists have impressive styles and make beautiful works, but their works often make people feel oppressive without something transparent,something open. His works are different from others’. He has something that others do not have.I think you are of the same kind , you also have something others do not have. Your practice is idiographic and you are inimitable.
“Every kind of expression has its own function.”
Teng Fei: What you said just now is absolutely true. My method of creation comes from art, not a place of design. In terms of my personal expression, most of it is hiding behind the art, and I rely on jewelry as an access point. When I want to make something, I need to maintain absolute freedom. When you are teaching, you have to keep the design in mind, because after all, it is design you are teaching. I’m always transforming the roles of designer and artist. In any case, I find it interesting, and I feel there’s a lot to do in there.
Yin Jinan: It’s just like my taste of writing. I think there are two styles in writing. One is used to write a standard thesis. Can you express yourself through a thesis? The answer is “yes”, but only in a very professional, academic way. However, you can’t entirely express yourself, as there are a lot of ideas that can’t be put in this kind of writing. You can also write essays—some people may call them reviews, but I always call them essays. This essay is writing based on artwork. Its literary style is completely different from a thesis. I write these two kinds of articles, but you can’t say I only write one and not the other.
Using only one type of writing can only express some things，not everything. I can’t say I can swap them. Or I could designate one way to express everything, but not every expression is pure. So there are many ways and channels to express things and each expression has its own pure function. Put together, you get powerful insight, not as scattered perspective. Lu Xun for example, he wrote not only literary history and political commentary, but also novels. He wrote prose and essays, along with keeping a journal for several decades. He wrote in every imaginable literary style. He expressed himself in all directions and he found that each was a side of himself.
You yourself also have no limits. You make prints, oil paintings and sculptures. You make almost everything. You are an artist.
“Our current state of being is actually extremely uncertain”
Teng Fei: One might say, at this stage, you should be pure in thought, and see clearly about everything. What would you say is the most important thing in life, at this stage?
Yin Jinan: Free thought. A smooth expression of everything imaginable. This is the most important thing.I am freer than before. First, subjects are free, so I don’t belong to any specific subject. In conversations, I hate hearing “you are a…”or “you are like…” I hate it because I’m not any of those things, I just am what I am. Just as long as I can freely think and express. Once you are limited by a kind of label, you will resist it. I especially don’t like standard of universal things.
Teng Fei: That’s true, what you just said. I also can’t stand this limitation. Just like you said, I always try to stay away from the majority. As soon as something becomes popular, I withdraw from it. It’s a conditioned response. Inasmuch as our birth date, we do have a strong resemblance between us.
Yin Jinan: We are all in connection with this. It’s because we both are Aquarians. They say Aquarians pursue freedom, and they hate limitations and restrictions.
Teng Fei: A student of mine also said it is very hard to know what Aquarians are thinking.
Yin Jinan: Yes, Lv Shengzhong’s comment about me was “You can’t put him in any right place.”
Teng Fei: What is your opinion on the current state of art in this era?
Yin Jinan: In general, art is gradually detaching from categories of values. It doesn’t represent a value judgment. We can say it only represents one’s temporary or momentary ideas and feelings. In the past, contemporary art and humanities were very difficult to separate, but now their relationship has loosened. Humanities is based on values. But now art has become a temporal thing: a temporary sensation, idea or method, but not a representation of values. This is a big change.
In the rapid change from modernism to post-modernism, a man can change a lot. He may move in different directions and express his ideas in a multitude of ways. We may wonder if he is really one man. It doesn’t matter whether he is one or many; he is expressing ideas that belong to specific moments in time, and those ideas may not have—and have no need of—any connection with him or with each other.
Teng Fei: Speaking of this, our current state of being is actually extremely uncertain.
Ps:This is an extract from a longer conversation; edited by Jiang Yuehong