回答：李紅軍 / 提問：蔣岳紅
蔣：“藝術”對於你意味著什麼？
李：這個問題我從來沒有細想過。既然你這樣問，我還是想想。記得91年我拿著我的一批創作小稿去見尹吉男老師，希望能得到他的指點。他看完之後除了鼓勵之外，還説“畫畫的人可以分為兩類：一類人是畫不畫都行；另一類人是不畫畫不行。我覺得你是不畫畫不行的那一類。”這句鼓勵的話一直藏在我心中。在藝術、工作生活矛盾激烈糾結的時候，這句話就會出現在我的腦子裏。事實上在96年以前我確實是老師説的那樣，不畫畫就覺得難受。那時我好像沒有明確的目的。作品能讓人説一聲好，參加一次展覽，在雜誌上發表一次，那我就相當地滿足。1996年到2006年這段時間沒有做作品，但心裏很難受，回想起來也有年齡、大環境、家庭、單位等因素的影響。直到2006年回美院讀研我才找回了過去的感覺。有人説對於藝術家而言，藝術是“一種信仰”、“藝術是毒品”。我很贊同，也品嘗到了它的味道，並且上了癮。還有一種觀點説“藝術是一種職業”，我想這也是近20年的事情。20年前中國職業藝術家很少。對於像我這種身在國家體制與社會之間游離不定人來説，職業化只能是一個夢想。因為我是一個捨不得的人，是一個貪婪的傢夥。在職業的選擇上，我嘗試過畫畫、種地、木工、中醫。最後好多機緣不但使我從事了最初喜歡的事情，還讓我吃上了商品糧，端上了國家的鐵飯碗。當然最幸運的是從事的藝術工作能獨立地自由地通過作品表達自己的奇思異想。個人的生存價值因此也能得到最大限度的實現。我覺得做藝術很好。
蔣：做一件作品時，你通常都會從哪兒開始？
李：過去的民間工匠做一件“作品”，一般是首先考慮它的實用性以及主顧的意圖，然後才設計製作。但是藝術從生活中分離以後，開始了去實用性，開始將物體精神化、觀念化。藝術的自主性、視野的廣闊性，媒介的廣泛性等等，使得創作方法發生了變化。近幾年好像有一種描述藝術家創作方法的一組詞語——一種是“從觀念入手”，即先有觀念，然後尋找對應的材料媒介和語言，最後完成作品，即使對某種材料的語言不熟悉，也可以找別人製作。藝術家只負責觀念；一種是“從材料入手”，即先掌握一種材料語言，在此基礎上尋求對應的觀念表達，但受語言的限制，所能觸及的觀念不是漫無邊際的。這兩種方法都有所長。而我基本上是屬於後者。我覺得藝術家不管在方法上如何發展，但他始終要借助材料語言或者接觸物體來呈現自己的想法。藝術語言的物質特性，基本上確立了藝術家的工匠身份。我所選擇的方法，不但我自己能夠控制，而且也能從中體會到材料語言在限制中延伸的魅力和觀念擴展的快樂。這其中繁複的製作過程中所顯現的勞動精神，使我感到心裏很踏實。
蔣：能説説那些你知道的關於“紙”的故事嗎？
李：蔡倫造紙的故事？這都知道。但我對我們縣文家坡鄉寺坡村王曹繼洗紙的故事很感興趣，王先生是縣裏遠近聞名的奇人。他是位農民知識分子，整天練功修行，飽覽古代陰陽學説。他有一種修善方式就是“洗紙”。這是他將傳統的“惜紙”習俗轉化為個人的修行方式。他每天早上起來就背一背簍去小學撿紙，包括學校廁所（旱廁）中的手紙，這些手紙都是寫過字的作業本上撕下來的紙。他撿完之後就去河裏一張張洗乾淨，晾幹、理平壓在炕蓆下邊。然後在上邊書寫毛筆字，最後在神龕前燒掉這些紙。他不但自己撿紙而且遇上求籤問卦、治病、尋物、安床、合婚、選擇吉日的村婦，從來不收任何費用，只是要求他們撿紙給他作為回報。這個故事我曾經講給呂勝中老師和徐冰老師聽，他們都很感興趣。兩位老師慧眼，這個故事中洗紙行為方法和精神在他們的作品中得到了轉換和持續地延伸。
蔣： “紙”對於你意味著什麼？
李：紙從發明以來始終在人類文化中始終佔有重要位置，是人類知識積累傳播的重要載體。而對我個人而言最早感受到紙還是被拴在炕窯的時候。窯洞上的窗戶都是唐式的條格窗，窗戶上糊著雪白的粉連紙。這也是在白天裏，窯洞中唯一透亮的地方。每格上邊都貼有貓狗花草內容的紅色剪紙。頂部還留有煙格，煙格中用紙粘起來的紙葫蘆，不斷的旋轉，兩隻左右旋轉的葫蘆就是我眼前唯一的活物。到了冬天也就是臘月二十三之前窗戶上的紙就會變黃破碎，北風一刮巴巴巴地響，還挺嚇人。母親就會用頭巾袖筒去堵上那些地方。臘月二十三當天母親又會如期換上一張雪白的粉連紙，再精心地把這張紙打扮一番。
上了小學就與紙接觸比較多了，和其他孩子一樣我也用寫過的紙擦屁股。開始學畫的時候只能買一張4分錢的紙，村上的合作社（商店）只有這種紙。
1976年村裏舉辦階級鬥爭教育展覽館，畫連環畫的時候才接觸到了白報紙、水彩紙、素描紙。當時拿上這些紙，我真的不敢在上邊輕易地畫。
其實對紙有些認識還是1985年文化館徵集民間剪紙的時候，剪紙中豐富的造型，剪刀與紙接觸後鋼鐵般的刀痕，都使我激動不已。在我與做紙扎和糊花燈藝人的接觸中，看到那些彩紙在他們手中通過折疊、拉、壓粘貼，就會成為一片逼真的荷花瓣或者牡丹葉。讓你感覺紙確實很神奇。
1987年到中央美院進修，第一單元的課程就是呂勝中老師的剪紙課——單剪、折疊、換堂子、正負形、染色等等。呂(勝中）老師帶我進入了中國剪紙藝術的造型與語言系統，改變了我認識的角度和深度。在他的指導下我寫了一本剪紙法的書，那也是我關於紙的第一部著作。
2006年讀研期間，我對木頭和農具（綜合材料）很感興趣，但再三思考還是選擇了自己熟悉的紙作為自己的媒介。我覺得傳統紙材中還有繼續發掘的可能性；而且傳統紙材與現代的電子數字技術的結合，將會對紙材技術語言的延伸會産生深遠的影響。從目前的創作實踐的情況來看，我覺得我對紙的選擇是比較適合我的。
蔣：選擇白紙的理由是什麼？
李：白色它確實是一種符號。在西方人那是純潔、永恒和高貴的象徵。白色是被用於婚禮服的顏色。在中國，白色代表西方（方位）、白虎、白金、秋季等。白色是祭祀的主色調，除了象徵清白與永恒之外更是“孝”的象徵。
雖然如此，白色相比形象符號來説，顯得單純一些。在過去的繪畫和裝置中我使用過毛主席像、書和包括傳統藝術中的牡丹石榴等等。但當我進入多層立體剪紙實驗的時候，我放棄了使用流行符號的方式。我就想著徹底回到藝術本身，揭去作品的表皮和標簽，甚至題目，使作品向內斂的方向發展，讓作品説話，觀念是以蒸騰或者輻射的方式傳遞給觀眾。
當然紙的顏色很豐富，也很好看。在以後我肯定會用各種色紙做一些實驗，白色只是我階段性的一個選擇。
蔣：在你看來，字紙和白紙的區別是什麼？
李：從材料屬性角度來説，白紙和書寫過或經過印刷的有文字或帶有圖像的紙都屬於人工化的材料，而且二者均有文化符號特徵。白紙相對字紙而言，符號化特徵顯得更為隱性。在書寫者或現代人的眼裏白色的紙只是一種材料，稱其為“耗材”。字紙的文化符號特徵是顯性的，一張報紙，一張圖畫、一張照片、一本書都有詳細而具體的形象和內容，這些符號明確的指向性便成了藝術家的切入點，或者“畫眼”。所以説，自現成品成為藝術之後，現成品改造與材料轉換就一直是現當代藝術最為流行的一種方法。這種方法很自然地與西方符號學和語言學研究背景有著密切的聯繫。所有利用書籍、報紙包括其他現成品，通過改造、材料轉換、集合創作作品，基本上都是使用的這種方法。我在1992年至1995年創作的《道•器》和《紅蜘蛛》使用了文字書和現成品集合以及改造現成品的方法。
蔣：在你看來，什麼樣的紙是好看的？什麼樣的紙會讓你有要改變它的衝動呢？
李：我覺得是紙都很好看，木漿的、樹皮的、秸稈的、棉質的、纖維的和再生的，精細的和粗糙的，薄的和厚的。只要使用得當，都能做出不錯的作品。
蔣：如果可能，你會從哪些方面來對紙進行改造呢？
李：過去， 在大部分藝術家那裏當然包括我自己常常被藝術的撞車而感到苦惱，認為中西方藝術家已經窮盡了藝術的方法。現在呢，我覺得情況並不是那樣的。科學技術的發展，會有更多的新材料的出現。電子化和數字化的不斷普及，也會為傳統材料技術和新視覺的探索與超越提供更多的可能性。
就紙而言，有著人類幾千年傳統藝術的資源與現當代藝術家的成果，加之現代技術手段，以及藝術家獨到的生活經驗，這些都有可能轉換和發展為新的藝術方法。比如近年來我在分層方法的基礎上，做了旋轉，加減，偏移等方面的實驗。接下來我可能會對色彩、鏡像、雕繪、圓筒等方法做一些實驗與拓展。
蔣：你希望你作品中的“紙”能給傳達給人們的是一些什麼樣的感受？
李：人們經常説好的藝術能給人以美的享受，帶來精神的娛樂與沉思。作為一個藝人的體驗，我認為一件好的藝術作品，給我更多的是一種生理上的強烈反應，就像被電擊的感覺。記得07年以助手的身份隨呂勝中老師在英國布展。與老師一起展出的一位英國刺繡工藝師也在布展。布展十天時間，其間策展人還專門介紹過，藝術家在墻上安裝大概7顆十字口的螺絲釘，每個螺絲十字口上鑲嵌著一顆鑽石。展區有一陳舊的長條桌，墻根放了兩條臟兮兮的亞麻布。因為語言不通，我沒在意。開展的那天，展廳外邊正在舉行開幕式。我走進這位藝術家的展區，覺得咋還不打掃展廳？那張桌子和這兩塊沾滿了墻灰的亞麻布還在那。我先看的是那張桌子，上邊是遺撒的塗料和放置塗料桶的痕跡，再仔細看那些痕跡是用“螺鈿”的方法製作的。接著我就很緊張的去看地上那兩塊沾滿了墻灰，有些地方發黴的亞麻布。當我掀開一角的時候，頭就嗡的一下，蹲在地上幾分鐘就沒站得起來，因為亞麻布上的痕跡使用刺繡做的。心裏埋怨了好長時間，沒有別的，只恨自己笨啊！研究了幾十年中國民間工藝，“螺鈿”、“刺繡”是中國固有的手工技藝，況且我的研究生課題就是“中國傳統刺繡技法”。這件作品讓我思想了很久很多。首先他為觀眾供了一個新的藝術角度，為觀眾和藝術家展示了藝術創造的元素離我們很近，就在我們的生活中，日常的勞動中，有時候近得常常緊貼著每一個人的肌膚。哪怕是幾千年來那些被先輩推至高峰的古老技藝，也同樣潛藏著成為當代藝術的契機。這位工藝師利用材質轉換的方法，在營造一個時間空間的過程中，給我的感受很深。佩服！
我偏愛“智慧型”的或者叫“智性型”的藝術作品。這也是我努力追求的藝術方向。紙和每一個現代人的關係就像自己的手臂。紙是人們最熟悉的材料之一，看書，玩撲克，卷紙、折疊信件、整理文件、整理書籍、數點鈔票、粘貼海報、發放傳單等都是司空見慣的行為和經驗。所以，我現在的作品除了鏤刻之外主要是從以上這些經驗中尋找方法和切入點。我想通過我的作品，讓觀眾能為我將一般的生存經驗昇華為藝術而發出感嘆 “這人挺聰明！”。這就是我希望作品傳達給觀眾的感受。
The 9 Answers about Into Papers
A:Li Hongjun Q:Jiang Yuehong
Q: What does “art” mean to you?
1A:I have never thought it over before. Well, since you ask it, let me think .Well, once I brought a bunch of my drafts to Professor Yin Ji-nan for his advice in 1991, he had a look of them and encouraged me, besides, he said: “There are two kinds of painters: one kind are those who needn’t paint always; another kind are those who must paint always, I think you are one of those who must paint always”. Since then, I have learnt these courageous words by heard. Whenever my art practice severely twists with my regular routine in career and life, these words will always turn up in my mind. Frankly, I had lived as he said before 1996, feeling quite awful if I had painted nothing. At that time I seemed living aimlessly, easily satisfied if anyone had praised my pieces once, or my pieces were once exhibited or published somewhere. From 1996 to 2006, I didn’t paint, but I did feel very awful. When I look back now, I think it may be affected by my age, the social environment and the issues of my family and working places, etc., at that time. I didn’t find back my past ambition in art practice until I went back to the Central Academy of Art for my postgraduate study. Someone says art is “a belief”, “art is kind of a drug”. I do agree to such a comment for the sake of an artist. I have tasted it, being addicted as well. There is another view saying “art is a kind of profession”. I think it is a recent view only for the last twenty years. Twenty years ago, there were few professional artists in China, and, to a person like me who lingered around between within the state-owned facility system and out of it in society, being a professional artist could be a dream only, as I am a person hard to give up, a desirous fellow. For my career experiences, I have worked as a painter, a farmer, a woodworker, a herbalist doctor, and, at last, lots of lucks have led me to the career I originally enjoyed, allowing me access to the state-supplied grains and the “iron bowl” of the state. Of course the best luck is that the art practice I engage in allows me to express my fantastic ideas freely and independently via my pieces, and maximizes the value of my personal existence, so I feel taking a job in art is very good.
Q: What's the first point when you create a work?
2A:The artisans in the past would first concern the practicability and what the customers wanted before they designed and made a piece. However, since art was separated from life, it began apart from its practicability spiritualizing the objects with certain concepts. The independence of art practices, the extensity of views, the university of media and others bring out changes in art methods. Recently there has been a group of phrases describing the artists’ methods in practice: “one method is to begin with a concept”, which means that a concept comes first, to find material media and languages corresponding to it next, and a piece completed at last. Even though the artist doesn’t know the language of certain material very well, he still can have others make it out and he is only responsible for the concept. “Another method is to start with material”, which means that mastering the language of certain material comes first, based on which searching a corresponding concept follows. This method lets the artists capable of controlling a practice but restricted to the language limit and unable to touch any boundless concepts. Each method gets its own strength. I’m the one with the second method. I think, no matter how an artist develops a method, he shall always use certain material language or specific objects to present his idea. The physical property of language applied in art basically decides the identity of an artist as a workman. The methods I choose enable me not only to control my practice but also to enjoy the charm of spreading the restricted material expression and the pleasure of extending my ideas. The engagement in working out such a complicate production makes me contented and sure inside.
Q: Could you tell us those stories about “paper” ?
3A:The story of Cai Lun’s Invention of Paper-making? It is well-known to everyone. I’m very interested in a story of how Wang Caoji washed paper, which took place in the Chipo Village of the Wenjiapo County in my hometown. Mr. Wang is a strange figure well-known in the town. He is a farmer-born intellect, practicing his skills and cultivating himself spiritually everyday. He is a master of the ancient Yin-Yang theory. “Washing paper” is one of his practices, one way of his personal cultivation which is transformed from the traditional custom of “cherishing paper” by him. Every morning, whenever he gets up, he would carry a basket on his back, go to a primary school and pick up paper, even the papers used for toilet in the school toilets. Those toilet papers are the papers torn off from used exercise books. After the collection, he would go to a river, wash clean those collected papers one after another, and then dry them, flatten them, keep them pressed under the mat on a kang ( a heated brick bed common in North China). Then, he would use them to practice his calligraphy, and in the end burn them out before a shrine. He not only picks up paper himself, moreover, he asks those countrywomen to do so for him in return instead of charging them money whenever they ask him to help their begging lots, asking for an interpretation of divinatory symbols or a medical treatment, seeking any lost object, placing a bed, holding a marriage or selecting a lucky date. I once told the story to Professor Lv Shengzhong and Professor Xu Bin who are both interested in it very much. They both have their insights of it. The methods and spirit borne in the practice of paper-washing have been converted and persistently extended in their works.
Q: What does “paper” mean to you?
4A:Since its invention, paper has always been playing a key role in human culture, as a main carrier for accumulation and communication of human knowledge. As for myself, it is when I was tied up to a kang inside a residential cave as a baby that I first got known of paper. The cave window was checked in the Tang-dynasty style, where the cases are pasted with a thin snow-white paper.It is the only place allowing the lights through into the cave in the daytime. On each case were pasted some red paper-cuts shapes as cats, dogs, flowers and bushes. There were two cases made on the top for air through, where the paper gourds were pasted and keep on revolving. The two revolving gourds were the only moving objects before my eyes at that time. When it was in winter before every lunar December 23, the paper over the whole window would turn yellow and broken and the North wind blowing up would cause some loud voices, pretty shocking. My mum would use her headbands or movable sleeves to block those holes. On the right day of every lunar December 23, as scheduled, my mum would change a new snow-white paper and decorate it elaborately.
During my primary schooling, I got to paper fairly often. Like other kids, I also used certain used exercise papers wiping my ass. When I started learning how to paint, I just bought paper priced 4 cent per piece. The village store only sold the kind. In 1976, when I took part in the Educational Exhibition of Class Struggles, I first got known of newsprint, watercolor paper and sketch paper for painting. When I got these kinds of paper at that time, I even didn’t dare to paint easily on them. It is in 1985 when I was in charge of collecting folk paper-cuts in the local culture hall that I started learning about paper. The abundant patterns of paper-cuts and the steely traces cut by the scissors through a paper did make me excited always. When I got to those artisans who made paper flowers and paper lamps, I really felt it amazing in watching those colorful papers being folded, plucked, pressed and pasted into a lifelike lotus leaf or peony leaf. In 1987, I went to Central Academy of Art for my advanced study. The first lesson is on paper-cuts lectured by Professor Lv Shengzhong– what is odd-cutting, folding, exchanging, shaping in positive & negative, coloring, etc. Professor Lv led me into the shaping and language system of Chinese paper-cutting art, altering the viewpoint and depth of my learning about it. Under his instruction, I wrote a book about the skills of paper-cutting, which is also my first work about paper. In 2006 when I took my postgraduate study, I started interested in wood and farm implements (synthesis material) very much; however, after a serious consideration, I decided to choose paper that I am familiar with as my medium. I think that it is still certain possible for us to keep on digging out the value of paper as traditional material for art , and to combine paper as the traditional material with the modern computer technology will place a far-reaching influence on materialization of paper property. From the view of the art practices today, I think my choice of paper suits me relatively.
Q: Why do you choose white paper?
5A:White is indeed a symbol, which stands for purity, foreverness and nobleness in the West world, where white is the right color for wedding dresses. In China, white stands for the west in direction, White Tiger in sky, silver or autumn, and so on. White is the key tone for memorial rituals. It is not only a symbol of cleanness and foreverness but also a symbol of “filial piety”.
However, white is relatively simpler than visual symbols. In the past, I applied the image of Chairman Mao, books, some traditional Chinese art symbols such as peony flowers, fruits of guava and the others to my paintings or art installations. When I have engaged in the practice of multi-layered cubic paper-cutting, I give up those prevailing symbols. What I really want is an absolute return to art itself, taking away the cover and label of a production, even its subject, letting itself moving forward into its own inside, which means let the art piece speak so as to raise or radiate the ideas to its audiences. Of course, the colors of paper are very rich and all look very nice. In the future, I am sure I will use papers of various colors for certain practices. The white color is just a choice of mine for this phase.
Q: What do you think makes letter paper and white paper different?
6A:From the view of material property, white paper and letter paper, used or printed, or graphic paper, are artificial materials, and they are symbols of culture in feature. Compared with letter paper, white paper is a symbol of culture more implicit. In the eyes of a writer or a modern, white paper is just a material, which is called “material for consuming”. A letter paper is an explicit symbol of culture, for example, a newspaper, a drawing, a photo or a book is loaded with detailed and specific images and texts. The clear designation of these signs becomes a cut-in point for an artist, or “the painting eye”. So, since the finished products have been an art, there has been a method of altering the finished products. This method is naturally tied up with the Western researches in symbolism and linguistics. All the pieces produced by altering, transforming or aggregating those books, newspapers or other finished products mainly come out in such a manner. It is also one most prevailing method in the modern art. My two works “ Dao•Utensils” and “Red Spiders” done from 1992 to 1995 were produced by the method of aggregating and altering books and finished products.
Q: What kind of paper do you think looks nice? What kind may stimulate you to alter it?
7A:I think all kinds of paper look beautiful: paper made of timber mixture, cortex, stalk, cotton, fiber, or it is recycled; refined or coarse; thin or thick paper. As long as they are employed properly, there will be no bad production.
Q: If possible, in what aspects will you alter paper?
8A:In the past, the majority of artists, of course including me, usually felt worried by the crashes in art, considering all the art methods had been used up by the previous Chinese and Western artists. But now, I think it isn’t true. With the development of science and technology, new materials will come out more and more. The constant innovations of electronic digitals will also bring out more possible chances for us to explore and go beyond the traditional technology of material applications and new visions.
As for paper, there are rich resources contributed by human traditional art over several thousand years and fruits achieved by the contemporary artists, plus the modern technical methods and the exclusive life experiences of artists themselves. All these could probably be transformed or developed to brand new methods in art, for instance, I have done certain experiments such as revolving, adding or reducing, drifting, etc. based on the layer-splitting method. Afterwards, I may be going to do certain experiments and developments on colors, images, engraved arts, cylinders and so on.
Q: What do you want the audiences will experience from the papers applied in your works?
9A:People often say that a good work can offer one an appreciation of beauty, a mental pleasure and meditation. From my own experience as an artist, I think a good work, instead, brings me certain sharp physiological reaction, just like an electroshock. In 2007, I remember I escorted Professor Lv Shengzhong as his assistant to the U.K. for his exhibition arrangement. There was a British embroidery artist who was to co-exhibit with Professor Lv also there at the same time for his exhibition arrangement. During the ten-day-long arrangement period, the exhibition planner even intendedly came and told that the artist was installing into the wall 7 screws of which the tops are cross-shaped, and on each top was studded a diamond. He set an old rectangle table in his exhibit room and placed two dirty linens over the wall corners. Because I speak no English, so we couldn’t talk, and thus I didn’t pay much attention to his doing. On the opening day, as there was the opening ceremony holding outside, I went into his exhibiting room and doubted why he hadn’t opened his room, watching that the table and the two linen pieces full of dusts from the wall were still there. I first had a look of that table, on its surface there were some remains of dopes scattered and kind of a trace left by a dope barrel bottom. When I had my second look carefully, I found all the marks were made by “spiral figuration”; then I intensely looked at the two dusty linens with certain parts already musty. When I opened one piece, I was shocked in the head and squatted down there for several minutes, hardly to stand up, since the linens were lined by embroidering. My heart was filled up with regrets for a long time, nothing else but for my silly head! I have studied Chinese folk crafts for decades, and, as it is well-known, “spiral figuration” and “embroidery” are both Chinese inherent handcrafts; moreover, my postgraduate research project is on “the Traditional Skills of Chinese Traditional Embroidery”. His work has drawn me into a deep consideration quite long and quit a lot. He first offers his audiences a new art viewpoint, showing his audiences and other artists that the attributes for art creativity are very close to us, existing in our life, our daily works, and sometimes so close as clung to the skins of everyone. It tells that even the ancient skills which have been developed to their supreme levels by our forefathers over thousands of years are still bearing chances to become modern arts as well. This master is creating a spatio-temporal course in transforming materials that impresses me very much. Fairly admire him! I favor the “wisdom-type” or “witty” arts. It is also what I am trying my best to run after. Paper related to every modern being is just like his arm. Paper is one most familiar material to everyone: reading a book, playing cards, rolling tissues, folding a mail, sorting files, packing books, counting bills, plastering a poster, providing a leaflet, and so on are our quotidian behaviors and experiences. So, the methods and cut-in points for my current works are mainly originated from these experiences besides the application of engraving. What I expect is that the audiences would excitedly praise: “The man is very smart!” when they recognize my capability of sublimating a common subsistent experience to a kind of art. This is what I want the audiences would experience from my works.
(Translated by Jiang Wenhui)