Michael Findlay (Director of acquavella gallery )
& Zeng Fanzhi
Acquavella 畫廊館長 與 曾梵志 對話
這些風景的作品看起來非常神秘。這是你見到的真實風景嗎？
不是，是一種妙悟的體驗，不是平常的一般認識，也不是理性認識。妙悟是一種顯現、揭示，但這一揭示並不是簡單地將世界本身彰顯出來，而是一種創造，所帶來的是一個新穎的世界。每當感到這個新穎的世界似曾相識，既熟悉又陌生，它就潛藏在自己生命的深層。所以，從這個意義上講，妙悟中的顯現是一種揭示，它只不過將自我生命中本來具有的內容顯露出來，它是熟悉的；換言之，妙悟中顯現的世界又是陌生的，它是令人驚奇的，所以在這個意義上，妙悟又是一種發現。
The panoramic landscapes seem mysterious. Do you see them this way? Is there a narrative?
They are not real landscape. They are rather about an experience of miao wu (marvelous revelation). Miao wu does not fall into the common categories of cognitive process. Neither has it anything to do with Reason. Miao wu is a kind of revelation. Instead of making something obvious Miao wu brought about an unmarked world, which underlies the deep strata of life, both novel and familiar. In this respect, the miao wu type of revelation concerns a disclosure of what is already embedded in the artistic ego – the revealed world is there, but it is unfamiliar and amazing. Miao wu constitutes a restless journey of discovery.
是什麼給了你靈感？你親眼所見的東西還是你的感覺？
我的創作靈感來自各個方面。比如童年時的記憶、我的人生經歷，包括聲音、氣味。這些都能給我帶來種種畫面，這些體驗是一種妙悟的體驗，是兩種不同的境界——物境和悟境。悟前是物，悟後還是物，並非導入玄虛的冥想，仍然有具體的物象顯現。但悟前之物雖然也為我眼中所見，但心與物了不相類，物是物，我是我，物是具體的勾起我的慾望和繁複意念的物，我是具有強烈意念並要將這一意念強加於物的我，物和我是客觀和主觀的關係。
What inspires you more--what you see or what you feel?
My inspiration comes from every aspects of life, such as my childhood memory, my life experience as well as their sounds and smells. They made for me a variety of mental images. These experiences are kind of Miao wu experience, which consists of two different conditions – the “objecthood” of the subject matter and the “equilibrium” of an artistic ego. The “objecthood” comes both before and after the “equilibrium.” The “equilibrium” thus ends up being less abstract contemplations than tangible images. Although a subject could throw its projection onto the artistic ego it nonetheless becomes the later – the artistic ego and the subject matter are distinct from each other. The subject is merely a trigger for the desires and calculations of the ego. It can only prefect itself through the imposition of the strong artistic ego upon the subject. The subject and the artistic ego belong to two different realms of the external and of the internal.
在最近的十年當中，你的風格最大的改變是什麼？
在這十年中，我越來越重視內心情感的表達。隨著情緒的波動可以創作出不同的作品。
What has been the biggest change in your work over the last ten years?
In the recent decade I became increasingly relying on an introspective representation. My sentimental fluctuation leads to the periodical difference among my works.
是否有什麼特別的歷史作品對你的發展起到積極或挑戰的影響嗎？
我一直抱著學習的態度研究美術史中大師的重要作品，從Jan Van Eyck到Pablo Picasso，在不同的年齡階段喜歡的藝術家不同。
Have any particular historical works of art motivated or challenged your development?
I have been consistently studying masters’ pieces that are art historically important. I embraced different masters, ranging from Jan Van Eyck to Pablo Picasso, in varied periods of my life.
你覺得在中國傳統繪畫和西方繪畫的技藝上有什麼衝突嗎？作品所表達的意境或作品的靈魂方面呢？
北宋蘇軾曾有詩到：“論畫以形似，見於兒童鄰。作詩必此詩，定非知詩人。”他的意思是説，如果畫畫只能畫得像，這跟小孩子的水準差不多。畫要畫出神。在中國的造型藝術中，有“不似似之”這樣一個原則。太似則呆滯，不似為欺人，妙在似與不似之間，既不具象，又不抽象，徘徊于有無之間，斟酌于形神之際。關鍵並不在像與不像上，而在如何對待“形”的問題上，以神統形，以意融形，形神結合，乃直神超形越，這是一個藝術家所應該做的。“不求明月盡，自有暗香來。”這聯古詩道出了中國藝術追求超越于形似之外的神韻的秘密。中國傳統繪畫用紙、毛筆、墨水，運用淡淡的墨水、線條來表現文人的心中的精神世界，追求的是意境，講究筆墨以及對藝術家人格的要求等等。
西方繪畫是用 布 、刀、油、油畫顏色，用明暗、光影、透視、解剖來表現，具有工匠氣。
Do you see any conflict between the different traditions of Chinese painting and Western art in technique, meaning or spirit?
Su Shi, the well-known poet of the eleventh century, states that “only children would judge a painting with its faithfulness to nature; one who is only able to compose the poem must not be a real poet.” He means that if a painting becomes a dull duplication of reality it would be considered only as primitive. A painting has to capture the essence of its topic. A principle central to Chinese art is about the uncertain status of “likeness of form(s).” If a representation gets too close to its prototype it may look rigid. On the contrary, if it goes too distanced from its life model it becomes a fake. The perfection swings, then, between the “like” and the “not-like,” the abstract and the concrete, the full and the empty. The key issue is not so much about the “like”-“not-like” as about how to approach the issue of “formation.” It is the responsibility of an artist to regulate the form with his spirit and to have the meanings embodied in the form, to an extent that the spirit and the form are perfectly combined and complement each other. “Should you not be lavish in the moonlight but rather enjoy the subtle fragrance?” The verse tells the secret of classical Chinese art that strives for a spirit to transcend its physical constraints. The traditional Chinese painting employs only very basic materials and devices, such as light paper, soft brushes, plain ink and simplistic lines, for an extraordinarily rich mindscape of literati. In comparison, Western painting reveals strong curiosities about the craftsmanship. It relies on heavy canvas, metal knives, opaque oil paints and elaborated palettes for spectacular Chiaroscuro type of contrasts, vivid perspectives and analytic knowledge.
現在你已經被歸為中國當代藝術頂極藝術家之一了。對你來説，你對其他人的作品有興趣嗎？你是否覺得自己是民族發展、國家發展或一個時代進程中的一部分？
比較關注作品，但不作任何評價。
我是60年代出生的，親身經歷了中國每一個十年的變化，我更關注作為普通的人的生存體驗，在我的創作中現代人思想與情感的自然流露，或許比那些刻意的中國符號和中國方式更重要。
You have been grouped with Chinese contemporary figurative artists. Do you feel any affinity with their work? Do you consider yourself part of an ethnic, national or generational Movement?
I am interested in their works, but tend not to be judgmental.
I was born in the 1960s and witnessed the change of the country in each crucial decade. I am more concerned with ordinary people’s life experiences. In my works, the natural revelation of contemporary thoughts and sentiments is far more important than those articulated Chinese icons and iconographies.
一些藝術家喜歡獨自工作，而其他藝術家喜歡在一個相對熱鬧的工作室和他的助手們一起工作。那麼你自己有什麼偏好嗎？
比較習慣獨自一人邊聽音樂邊工作。
Some artists enjoy working alone, others in a busy studio with assistants. What is your ideal work environment?
I got used to working alone while listening to music.
在中國，你已經是你這個時代非常優秀的藝術家了。你的作品被世界上很多大的美術館和大收藏家收藏。在拍賣中，你的作品又以非常非常高的價格出售。那麼，你自己怎樣來度量你自己的成功呢？在未來的十年中，你將要得到什麼樣的成功呢？
關於作品在拍賣中創造的高價，是完全出乎我的意料的。還在大學創作的時候，並不知道我的作品還可以賣。當時，只是根據自己內心的感受、需要來創作，把繪畫當成了生活的一部分。
在未來，不太希望人們過多關注我的作品的價格，而是希望我的作品被越來越多人所理解。希望我的作品能在不同的國家、民族中産生共鳴，並且要經得起時間的考驗。
You are now one of the pre-eminent artists of your generation in China , your work is bought by major museums and collectors world-wide and has sold for extremely high prices at auction. How do you measure success for yourself and what type of success would you like to achieve in the next ten years?
The auction records were out of my expectation. I was not even aware that my works are marketable in my college. At the time I only wished to paint with my heart. Painting is part of my life.
In future, I hope that people will not be so concerned with the price of my work as with its interpretations. I wish that my works would be able to make senses to different nations and people. And their influences would be endurable.
過去，你曾經畫過毛澤東和一些西方偉人的畫像，來展現亞洲和西方的融合。那你認為你的這套作品有任何政治和／或文化的批判嗎？
作為一個中國藝術家，社會主義的思想教育不僅體現在我們的生活中同時也深深的影響了我們的藝術創作。我們是接受社會主義思想教育成長下的一代新人，社會主義現實主義的藝術方式是我們自我表達的開始，也是我們展望藝術未來的起點。這是一個無法回避的事實。在歷史的變革和藝術的表達之中，我們選擇的是直面社會的現實和現實所賦予我們的感受。這是我們所受的教育的根本，也是我們超越我們所受的教育的武器。正是中國特殊的社會背景與意識形態豐富了藝術家的創作。越來越多的藝術家關注社會、關注政治方面的問題；另一部分藝術家則更關注作為普通的人的生存體驗。也許前者更能提示一個“中國”或者“中國當代藝術”的存在，但對於我自己的作品來説，我更傾向於後者，更關注人的生存體驗。
In the past you have painted images of Mao Zedong and your prototypical "man" image appears to allude to a fusion of Asian and Western stereotypes. Do you see your work as political and/or cultural critique?
As a Chinese artist, the socialist discourse and education is an intrinsic part of our life. It has made a deep impact on our artistic endeavors. The socialist realist way of doing art unfolds our journey as young artists. Meanwhile it is also a departing point for our future pursuits. This is a matter of fact and should not be bypassed. Regarding historic reforms and artistic expressions, we choose to face the reality and be true to our feelings that the reality brought about. This concerns both our primary trainings and a potential way to get out of it. The unique social circumstances and ideologies enrich the artistic spectrum of contemporary China. While more and more artists pay attentions to societal and political issues, there are also some people who are more concerned with the life experiences of ordinary persons. The former may help remind the observers of the existence of a “Chinese Art,” or “Chinese Contemporary Art,” as in their capital forms. But I am certainly prone to the latter. I have a deep concern with the substantial life experiences of ordinary people.
如果讓你選擇在除了當今這個時期，選擇在歷史中任何一個時期、任何一個國家，你會選擇在什麼地方創作你的作品？
我會選擇在20世紀初的法國，與保羅塞尚一起畫靜物。
If you could choose to be an artist working in any milieu in any country at any period in history other than today, what would that milieu be?
I would like to find myself in the early 20th century France, sitting with Paul Cezanne, doing still life stuff with him.