上個世紀90年代中美關係最困難的時候，您依然與中國外文局合作，發起了《中國文化與文明》大型出版項目，我想您當時一定壓力很大。你能做到這一點，是出於什麼樣的信念和動力？
有大的原因，也有小的原因。先説大的原因，從60年代我開始積極思考中美關係，我認為美國的對華遏制政策存在著巨大的歷史不公。從1949開始，遏制或孤立中國的政策沒有取得任何好的效果，不僅對中國不利，也無益於美國。
人們會時常問我，特別在90年代中美關係最困難的時期，他們問：“你是在試圖讓中國開放嗎？”我回答説：“不，中國開不開放由中國人決定，我是在試圖讓美國開放。”我為什麼這麼説，因為如果美國人不去了解中國，不能接受中國的革命、發展與獨立，他們就不會理解這個世界最基本的構成元素。所以廣義上，這是我做這個項目時的政治環境。
在90年代，美國再一次迅速展開對華施壓的行動並敵視中國。可如果美國只是因為別國不根據美國的意願行事，就敵視這個國家，那麼將有更多人不再願與美國對話。所以我認為，中美之間的友好交往不能斷。同時我也認為，對中國的研究和思考被西方人大大壟斷了。可有多少西方人知道任何一個中國著名的歷史學家？有多少西方人知道任何一個中國著名的畫家？所以，我做這個出版項目的原因，並不止在於加強中美文化本身的聯繫，還有一個信念，就是讓美國和西方世界記住那些中國學者的名字，那些中國學者才是最了解中國的人。在那個年代，寫中國的人都是西方人，這就造成了寫作內容的失衡。所以我的另一部分初衷，就是和中國外文局一道突破這一巨大障礙。
但是，正如你講，雖然這個項目在美國敵視中國這一大環境下成形，但是通過外文局編輯和我在耶魯的共同努力，我們自己創造出一個環境，一個基於平等和相互尊重的環境。在這個環境下，我們共同尋找當時所面臨問題的解決方法，尊重與平等的精神支撐我們面對現實挑戰。這種精神很重要，因為你還是能在美國政府上下的對華態度中看到優越感和傲慢自大，他們總説要找控制中國的辦法，質問中國是否擔起國際責任，但美國卻沒有問自己，如何管理好自己，自己是否履行了國際責任。所以做這個項目也是想在中美間開闢出一條尊重平等的新路。
並且，在和中國外文局的合作中我認識了一批人，他們堅定、有想法、思路開闊，他們教會我很多我需要去明白的事，也讓我在做這個項目時深受啟發，這個出版項目中涉及的書種類煩雜，所以項目匯集了來自於世界很多地方的學者，不只有美國人，還有歐洲人，包括俄羅斯人。這雖然是一個非常複雜的項目，但它成功了，因為在工作和協調中，參與該項目的中國團隊發揚了尊重與平等的精神，這雖然只是部分中國精神的縮影，但我相信在廣義上，它將大大有益於中美關係。
[Transcript]
Well, there are big factors and there are small factors. The larger one was, I, from the 60s on when I first became active, had thought that there was enormous historic injustice involved in the US policy towards China- its containment policies, its policies since 1949 that nothing good had come out of such containment or the isolation. And part of what were so bad about it was not just about China; it was also what it meant for the US.
Because sometimes people would ask me particularly in the difficult years in the 90s, “are you trying to open up China? ”, I said “no, that’s the decision for the Chinese to make. I’m trying to open up America.” Because in part, if Americans can't understand, if they can’t come to terms with the Chinese revolution, the Chinese development, the development of independent China, if they can’t come to terms with that, they’re not going to understand very basic elements in the world. So there was the broad sense of the political context.
And I felt that Americans were very quick to move towards once again in the 90s trying to pressure and show hostility towards China. And after all, if you simply take it stand towards a country on the basis of things you don’t like, there would be an awful lot of people that didn’t talk to the US, given what it does in the world. So I felt the important thing was that the links be continued. Now within that, I also felt that the study and thinking about China had been much too monopolized by Westerners. How many westerners knew a famous Chinese historian? How many westerners knew a famous Chinese painter? So part of the idea of the project was not simply to develop cultural links per se, it was also predicated upon the believe that some of that certainly I believed in, that it was time that the Chinese scholars who knew their country best should become names known in my country and the western world. After a most people who were writing about China were westerners, and there was no balance in those years. So part of the original hope in working together was to break that barrier as well, because it was a profound barrier.
But it was done as you say in a hostile environment initially, and yet, we were able by creating a milieu here with editors at CIPG and the work I did in regards to Yale, to create an environment, which was based I think on a real spirit of trust and mutual respect and equality. And within that, figuring out how to solve of the problems we had to confront, which were many, and yet which were in a way, given the spirit, a real challenge. The spirit is important because the tone that you still often find in American policy towards China, all the way up and down, is still a rather condescending in my opinion, an arrogant tone - we have to know how to manage China, we have to question is it living up to its responsibilities in the world, we don’t ask these question in the US, we should, but we don’t. So the project was designed to also cut through all of that as well.
And I found, in working with CIPG, a group of people who were committed, thoughtful, open to try all sorts of different ways, and they partly educated me into what I needed to understand to make a project like this work - this very multi-dimensional project of all these books, bringing together all these scholars from so many parts of the world, not just Americans, but there were Europeans and Russians. There were various scholars that were brought in. This was an enormously complicated project, but it worked because the Chinese team here working and interacting, was able to develop in miniature the kind of spirit that I think actually would be far more helpful in a broad sense, I’ve always believed, in US-Chinese relations.
